In conversation with Kelly McCabe

Asif (00:17):

Hello, welcome to another episode of the SOchat podcast with your host Amy Nettleton and myself Asif Choudry say hello Amy.

Amy (00:27):

Hello.

Asif (00:27):

You always tickle me when you do this. She has a different hello every time. So today onto telling you all about our guest. So today our guest is Kelly McCabe who’s managing director of TMP, The Mortgage People and a regular to SOchat conversations. He’s a little bit more info. So starting her career in financial services in 2001. Kelly, you don’t look old enough. Kelly worked as a broker focusing on affordable housing. Forming TMP in 2005, Kelly has grown the company to become one of the UK’s leading specialist shared ownership brokers, working alongside lenders, government and housing associations. Kelly’s focused on continuing her years of work in raising the profile of shared ownership across the UK and her knowledge and enthusiasm for improving shared ownership as well known. And she’s been instrumental in many positive changes over the years. So Kelly, thank you for joining us and it’s a pleasure to welcome you on the SOchat podcast.

Kelly (01:26):

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Amy (01:31):

That’s some welcome, isn’t it Kel?

Asif (01:31):

It’s good isn’t it?.

Kelly (01:33):

I know its good. That’s what I wrote about myself.

Asif (01:34):

Yeah, absolutely. And we ask all that I guests you know yourself better and there’ll be people nodding in agreement with all of that anyway.

Kelly (01:41):

I need to edit it though, just to say and she’s exceptionally good looking.

Amy (01:45):

Of course.

Asif (01:46):

You don’t need to edit that part. Everybody knows that Kelly, everyone knows that.

Kelly (01:51):

That’s why you’re not having cameras on this thing.

Asif (01:53):

So Kelly’s hosting a dinner part. Normally our guests would be just not, well they might be hosting but they won’t be doing the cooking. So we’ve got a little bit of a different dinner party guest list here. So three people you can invite to your dinner party, Kelly, who are they?

Kelly (02:11):

Well it has to be present company excluded obviously because I don’t think my life would be worth living if it wasn’t Amy.

Amy (02:17):

Well no, you should want to not just because you feel you have to…

Asif (02:23):

Amy’s doing the washing up.

Kelly (02:27):

If it was present company excluded it would do. It’s a difficult one and I’ll put some thought into this. Number one was an easy one. It’s got to be Tim Seaward. I think everybody needs a bit of Tim Seaward in their life. Do you not agree? Just it an hour in that man’s company makes you feel inferior as a human being but restores your faith in humanity.

Asif (02:54):

Yeah, Tim Seaward would big shout for Tim. Yeah, totally agree with that. When you run an hour, you want more than an hour though, don’t you? That’s the only drawback.

Kelly (03:01):

Absolutely. He’s an addictive man.

Asif (03:08):

Okay, number two…

Kelly (03:09):

Robert Jenrick. Don’t ask me questions why?

Amy (03:11):

Well I can’t even get into that one with you. I’m glad I’m not there.

Kelly (03:16):

But do you know what, this is the thing about a dinner party and I sound like my dad now, which is not a good thing. It’s good to mix it up a bit to get a bit of a debate going, but yeah, I’d love to be sat in a room with him to ask him some really awkward questions. That’s why, not because I really want his company but I’d just love to have him there.

Amy (03:36):

Okay got you.

Asif (03:37):

We’ll tag him into this when we released the episode. See what he’s got to say for himself. See if he’ll RSVP go on and you’re number three?

Kelly (03:46):

Well I’ll break the rules on it because they’re not industry but Michelle Obama because if the could have anyone, would you not want to share a meal with a woman like that?

Amy (03:58):

Absolutely.

Kelly (03:59):

Just and imagine though. But just imagine putting Michelle Obama and Tim Seaward on a table together. Oh my life is complete.

Amy (04:06):

You may as well just leave, there’s no more of a duo that would make you feel inadequate.

Kelly (04:13):

Absolutely. So yeah, they’re my three choices. There were multiple people it could have been but I felt like that was quite a good…

Asif (04:24):

Good choices. That’s a tough gig to get if you’re going to get pushed out of a dinner party invite list, then those three people and the reasons you’ve given, you’re okay with it aren’t you Amy?

Kelly (04:33):

Unless It’s Robert Jenrick.

Amy (04:35):

You know, I’ll happily wash up for sure. Just don’t normal 10 course meal Kel, because I can’t cope with that.

Kelly (04:45):

It’s not a 10 course meal, it’s just a constant eating. It’s just a constant state of eating.

Asif (04:50):

A taste of menu. Yeah, just keep going. Okay, that’s good though. So I like that, some nice choices. So Amy over to you with some serious stuff, some shared ownership stuff now.

Amy (05:01):

Thank you very much. And probably this may form, well it would form part of the debate over the dinner table and that’s how I kind of want to take it a little bit really of just a bit of a chat as we always do, but wanting to kind of probe some questions that I know Kelly and I have been asking in the kind of more of a national forum and just so much going on and I just think it’s good to always check in with you Kelly and let the listeners and the community check in with you and get your side of things and sense check of where we are. So at the time of recording this, it is the last day of the conservative party conference. So make of that what you will and we awake to continual, news I would say, because everyone’s going to have different opinions on what the headlines are and what the news is.

(05:59):

So what I want to talk about now, Kelly is kind of where we are now as of today and I also know that this could be a very different answer even by the time tomorrow or even by the time we publish. So we need to bear that in mind. But what I want to talk about really is just kind of the mortgage market generally here, we’re constantly seeing headlines. I know you tried to have a week off last week and that was probably the worst week off that you could potentially have with every headline around lenders pulling out the mortgage markets in disarray. And I know that a lot of our colleagues across the sector will have had a lot of calls from their executives around, “Oh my god, what’s happening in the market where, what’s going on? Are we in turmoil?” All of those kind of things.

(06:49):

So talk to us about where we are as we sit today and what sits behind these headlines that we’re actually reading.

Kelly (06:59):

I suppose this is the starting point is we didn’t see this bit coming but where sit now to look back at it. I think lenders haven’t withdrawn and I think that’s the thing that headline the media are fabulous at somethings and awful at others and as we know that everybody loves a scandal. So the headlines don’t read wholly true you’ve got to get some context in there.

(07:25):

So the lenders haven’t withdrawn, there’s a difference between lenders withdrawing rates and lenders withdrawing. They haven’t withdrawn, they’ve withdrawn their rates, which it might be unpopular opinion. Again, I’m used to having them but I don’t disagree with what they’ve done. I know there’s been an impact, but it’s understanding what’s happened and why. What we see in a normal market is that when lender get busy and I’ll come back to that, but when lender get busy, all this movement in interest rates, lenders will reprice high.

(08:05):

It tends to be when they’re busy they’ll reprice high, they push their rates up, they’ll then look to kind of clear their backlogs. What that means is that by pushing their rates high, they don’t get as much business. So they’re obviously stubbing that flow of business coming in. As you can imagine, all of those calls that we are all getting, Imagine being a lender right now with the general public making those phone calls and feeling that pinch with all the interest rate changes. So what lenders didn’t do this time is push their rates up to allow themselves some time, because what we see are these artificial highs in the market and right now what we don’t need are artificial highs. The highs are enough on their own.

(08:49):

So lenders have just essentially closed the doors for a minute as far as new rates go and new business go to allow them to get back on their feet a little bit that I don’t believe that they’re going to be entirely up to date by the time they come back and they needed some kind of level of certainty they needed something within the market to be able to price accordingly. And I know it doesn’t feel like the right thing, but I don’t think it was as bad as the alternative. The alternative would’ve been lenders ramping their rates really high really quickly and it sends the wrong messages. So if we understand what’s happened, it doesn’t mean that there’s nothing to be concerned about long term. And it’s not to say that rates aren’t going to go up, that all of that is still going to happen, but that withdrawal is not as drastic as it sounds. And I think we’ve got to get things in context.

Amy (09:46):

And it’s interesting isn’t it, because this happens all the time doesn’t it? This kind of recycling and reassessing and reappraising and it’s no different to what happened in the market at the beginning of COVID or when we had all of that. Is it?

Kelly (10:02):

The only difference is there was more of a liquidity problem at the start of COVID and that is not what we’re facing now. Banks have money. We at the very start of COVID though, we’re concerns over where the money was going to come from and banks obviously just went oh and stopped.

Amy (10:18):

Yeah.

Kelly (10:18):

That changed very quickly too. But what we are seeing is banks, as you correctly say banks do this all the time, but what they tend to do is they push their rates up to allow it this time they’ve just withdrawn to allow it, which is better. We just don’t need to see those overinflated rates at the moment.

Amy (10:39):

No and I think that’s it and I think it’s it. What I wanted to get across is the context of what this means and why they do this. Cause like you say, this isn’t explained and I think that’s really important to get some understanding of the difference of oh my God, things are getting pulled to actually know this is just a normal practice. And so as we sit now Kelly, what would your headline be?

Kelly (11:07):

Be prepared? I think…

Amy (11:09):

Like a girl guide?

Kelly (11:11):

Absolutely. I think staying informed and being prepared would be my, at the minute there’s a lot of change. There’s a lot that is happening and understandably people are worried but panic does doesn’t achieve anything, being pragmatic does. And I think right now we’ve got to look at, and I’m talking at a customer level, but equally a housing association level I would imagine. It’s about where do you sit with risk? Because we’ve sat for a very long time in a very low risk environment and questioning our appetite for risk has been negligible really. But now we’re not, we’re in a scenario where if I act now this is the outcome. If I wait it’s variable, but it could be this. So that’s all about risk.

(12:07):

So as a customer, the things that I do now might cost me more. What I’m talking about in particular is people with mortgages at the moment are saying should I pay my redemption penalties and jump on along the term fix rate? That’s the most common question we’re getting. And the answer is not that we can tell you what to do because we can’t tell you what’s going to happen, but what we can tell you is…

Amy (12:29):

What you don’t know the future?

Kelly (12:31):

I do, but it costs you a lot of money to tell you.

Amy (12:33):

Oh I get you.

Kelly (12:37):

The advice is, do what’s right for you right now and if you are risk averse do what’s going to help you sleep at night. If you’re open to a bit more risk and you can afford it, you’ve got to be able to afford it. That’s the key. So I know that affording it is an open ended subject at the moment and we don’t really know where that’s going to land, but just be prepared, just be informed. I think that would be my key.

Amy (13:07):

I think that’s really interesting isn’t it? Do what’s right for you and what you think the market can withstand or what you can withstand in a changing market. And I think even from a consumer and a provider point of view, your point around risk is very true that we haven’t really had to assess that or move in a market and feel that the market is working against us. Whereas this is probably the first time people are having to make decisions around. A lot of people have not seen in their working time a real hike in interest rates. We’ve been in a natural low territory for such a long time that this kind of incremental rise that we’re seeing just feels very alien to a lot of people. And that is certainly, like you say, just managing your risk and making your decisions, what’s right for you as a person as opposed to what you are reading in the press as to what the right thing to do is.

Kelly (14:10):

Definitely, and you are right about interest rates as well and I know that it’s really easy to feel that where we were was normal but we have to remind ourselves that we’ve been in abnormally low interest rate period and it was never going to stay there. Actually where we are right now today is probably a lot more indicative of where we will be in the long run. So I feel like we’re not going to stay where we are at the moment. I don’t think it’s fair to say that we know rates have got to go up so we are going to go through a period but I think if anybody’s looking to where we were and waiting for us to get back there, I think it’s going to be a long wait.

Amy (14:55):

No, I completely agree. So touching on that and moving this bar a little bit, so where we are now and I want to bring in obviously because we’re talking on, SOchat is, so in that whole market commentary and all of the things that you’ve spoken about around it, and I think affordability is a big one here.

(15:16):

Where is shared ownership at the minute? Where are the shared ownership specific products at and lender appetite? We’ll come onto affordability but equally expand on that. But I’d also like to understand and maybe for you to get an insight from your side of who, what are your customers saying to you or what’s their appetite for continuing lending looking like and products and has that changed at all?

Kelly (15:48):

Yes. I think everything has changed.

Amy (15:53):

[inaudible 00:15:54] A podcast.

Kelly (15:54):

Yes, thanks very much. The customer conversations have changed, our customer behavior has changed. The drive of our customers changed, we’ve seen our inquiry numbers have dipped off slightly, which is to be expected at this time of year anyway. We are back to the Pre COVID seasonal shifts, which is nice to see. But what we’ve seen is that those people we are speaking to are that much more driven and there’s almost a sense of come hell or high water, they want to buy a property. So we almost have to step in as the voice of reason a little bit to say oh okay and we certainly not there to stop people buying properties far from it that has to happen or my business doesn’t work. But we’re definitely advisors and our advice is always to go through everything. It’s about getting the right setup.

(17:01):

And I think this is where shared ownership is so key shared ownership, yet again for me, I know there are flaws within it and I know that that people are uncomfortable with certain elements of it, but for me the key bit is the flexibility of it. So where we see shared ownership coming into its own at the minute is that rent right now represents really good value for money because that 2.75% as a maximum realistically on your purchase is vastly cheaper than the mortgage end.

(17:38):

And that’s where shared ownership in a market like this, it’s that slider scale. When we are in an increasing market and people are struggling to get on the housing ladder, it serves people that need to get on at that end and gives them a vehicle in which to get onto the housing ladder. In a market that we are in and going into more heavily, I believe that it offers affordability in a different way in that maybe where something was affordable to you before, maybe even on the open market it now isn’t you are able to move that slider around on shared ownership and find that perfect scenario where things are more affordable.

Amy (18:14):

And I think we’ll come onto it in a bit, but that is where it plays into new build territory. But maybe we need half an eye, full eye on definitely secondary market territory and this is probably where the products and how we service them and how we work with our customers that are probably coming twin track are maybe slightly different than we’ve done before.

Kelly (18:39):

Definitely, but I think are lenders still lending? Yes. Those that have withdrawn are certainly coming back in. They’re just getting their products up to date. Do lenders want to lend? Yes, definitely. Are they changing how they’re assessing affordability? Not a shared ownership thing, but as a whole? Yes, absolutely. They’ve got to responsible lending as much as responsible landlords is key when we are talking about anything shared ownership wise.

Amy (19:11):

And do you think around the affordability question, do you think as providers we should be doing more in that space? And I’m always a bit reticent because this is why we work with fully qualified and trained people like yourselves as advisors, but is there an additional role for providers to be layering on any risk mitigant there for the affordability. I’m comparing that to the Homes England kind of calculated that people use as a cursory beginner.

Kelly (19:53):

It’s a difficult one to answer because you’ve got to be careful not to stray into the territory of advice and housing associations dictating what is affordable to a customer. Because I still don’t believe that’s the HA’s position and that neither do Homes England. But I think there is, you know the most direct way to answer that is to have conversations with your IFAs that work or your IMAs I should say, that you are working with because we are going through a process at the minute of questioning whether we should be stress testing the rent on assessment and at that point, if we do that on your behalf, we are then looking at affordability in a much more realistic capacity based on the fact that we don’t know if interest rates are going to go up next month. We think they will, we don’t know.

(20:46):

But what we do know is that rents are going up next year. So if we know that’s the case, we really should be building that into assessments. So should you be doing more at the front end? Should you be doing more as a HA? No, I don’t think so. Other than being open to the fact that you should be having those conversations with your mortgage brokers to make sure they’re assessing in the way that is better, the outcomes are better for tomorrow. Today I appreciate is going to be a focus point, but I think we are not, today’s customer is tomorrow’s problem sometimes and I think yeah, we need to be focused on tomorrow.

Amy (21:27):

And I think that’s right. So it’s working with providers and specialist brokers like yourselves working together to say, look, this is where we want a bit more risk cover and working with you to look at what that structure’s like. And that could be different from kind of provider to provider, but at least that advice is being driven by you guys and not us.

Kelly (21:48):

Yes, a hundred percent.

Amy (21:49):

Absolutely. Okay, well brilliant. So I think then, so where we are at, what I’d really like to chat about now is where do you think shared ownership specifically is going and is it still the credible, affordable alternative?

Kelly (22:10):

Yes, but I think there are bumps in the road for shared ownership and I think that it needs transparency around them. As we’ve already alluded to about the rent rises, whilst we are talking about it very much the sales end here, when we backtrack a little bit and we look at the sales that have happened over the past 3, 4, 5 years, those customers, all customers are going to be hit by the same rent rises. And we’ve got to be really mindful of that. I honestly don’t know what the solution is because I don’t, Housing associations run as businesses in their own ways. But how can we support existing shared owners who are not only going to be hit by cost living increase potentially if their mortgage rates come into an end, they’re going to be hit by increased mortgage payments, but equally the rent rises. So to answer your question, is it still the affordable, I still believe that in total is probably still a lot more affordable than the alternative, which is the rental market I would suggest. Yeah, but is it perfect? No.

Amy (23:38):

No and I think we’ve discussed that and I think it is around the changes that even the new model are bringing in for new shared owners around the extended lease and the kind of commitment and contribution to repairs and maintenance and lower stair casing shares. I think that it certainly is moving forward as customer focused as it can be. And I think it is around, like you said, that and the whole cost increase is not just rents is it, rents is an element of that, but service charges anything to do with any potential lease hold arrangement that you are in. So not specifically designated just to shared ownership solely and shared ownership sits within that kind of remit. Where do you think in terms of the lending environment shared ownerships going, where do you think it sits in where we are now in terms of economic uncertainty and a little bit of market movement? Where do you think it comes into its own or has it positioned?

Kelly (24:53):

I think lenders that are in will stay in, I don’t see that they would have any particular reason to bail out. There’s nothing, as you’ve said, the things that are facing customers at the moment are not uniquely shared ownership problems. These are across the board. There’s actually a different level of comfort when it’s shared ownership in there is the housing association in the back end. There is a portion of that payment that if they weren’t pay their rent but they continue to pay their mortgage, they can essentially take a chunk of their payment out. So there’re different things facing that I think the mortgage lenders are going to start to see. I do think that if lenders start to see, and to use one of your phrases, Amy, there is a real lag to what we are going to experience right now all the problems that we are kind of sitting talking about, we’re not going to really see them for a couple of years as far as the backend goes.

(25:52):

But lenders are no less interested in shared ownership. They’re really just right now, I don’t think it’s their main focus at the moment. They’ve got all their resources pushed towards existing customers and just basically keeping going. So I don’t see that there’s less interest. I don’t think that shared ownership is less attractive to them. I do think that we will struggle to gain any momentum on the sub 25% shares now. I know that there was some better conversations happening with some lenders around them entering, but I think right now is not the time and I don’t know that you’re going to see that kind of lending stepping in at the moment. So probably the two lenders that we’ve got, we are likely to be just them for the foreseeable.

Amy (26:53):

So where do you think that leaves that product or our approach to it? Do you think it just sits alongside even the mainstream product that we know can be offered from 25 to 75. And as we know and we talk about a lot, that’s been the kind of standard for such a long time and the average national share runs it early to mid forties and always has done and that’s not saying that we don’t pick up that low end of the market because we do. I suppose it’s maybe, and it’s probably quite an unfair question of me to ask you, so I do apologize for that. But I suppose it’s maybe around providers approaches and decisions on how they approach those properties coming through within their program with very minimal mortgage lenders available.

Kelly (27:48):

I think it’s a bigger thing. You could probably do a whole podcast just based on, so 25% shares. I think that the question is who is right for that? And it’s a bigger question around are lower shares better than higher shares? And should we, this is more in the spotlight at the moment because of the guaranteed rent increases that people are going to feel over the next couple of years. And this was why Robert Derick would be my dinner party guest just to bring it back around, what on earth made you think this was a good idea? I think in certain areas that lower shares are, they’re definitely needed. There are certain areas of London where those lower shares will definitely help some people. And I’m not denying that at all, but I think the unrealistic dream of home ownership being suggested from 10% across the country, it doesn’t make any sense to me it doesn’t work. And I think

Amy (28:58):

Suppose what I’m getting at is from a provider point of view, do you make the decision and are we going to see that movement in providers to go, do you know what, yes there are customers available that 10 to 24% but there only option purchase that is a cash route or they can’t maximize as much as we would want them to maximize. And there’s kind of a bit of a melting pot really of where the sector and providers go in terms of marketing that and being able to credibly sell that offering.

Kelly (29:33):

I did, yeah. But there are certain scenarios where unless it’s a cash purchase, it just simply doesn’t work for people. Affordability, it doesn’t move on a constant up and down, affordability gets to a point where it just simply isn’t affordable as home ownership for you. And so I think it’s fought with problems and I think the problem is the biggest problem for me is the message to our customers is that home ownership is available from 10%, but the reality of that is so very different. And I think it’s housing associations with, you can’t say we’re not going to offer it. I understand that, but I think what you’ll find in reality is that you’ll have a lot of schemes where it just simply won’t materialize, because lender affordability, customer appetite.

(30:29):

It’s a common misconception as well that customers want to buy the lowest share they can. They just don’t, they want to buy as much as they can. So I think it was a headline and well done you got a headline, but everything else is just…

Amy (30:46):

So my final kind of chat and stint with you is around what’s next And this changes, we only need to open our eyes and look at Twitter or turn on the news every morning and something else has happened or some of the headline is with us. So obviously we’ve talked about the new product. Anyway, happy for you to touch on that again if you feel relevant. But I think what’s next mainly for kind of shared ownership, home ownership in such uncertain market terms, macro and microeconomics. When my GCSE economics coming in there, my tutor will be very pleased I think. And there’s so much kind of political and economic change all the time. I mean this is how old I am. I just turned off LBC before recording this podcast and it feels like that movement of politicians is happening again in the background.

(31:52):

Are we going to see yet another leadership race potentially forming? And I know you haven’t got all the answers for this, but this all impacts on kind of consumer, customer lender behavior market behaviors around such uncertainty and turmoil in how our country is being ran and potentially could change again and the impact that has on our markets and where we stand.

Kelly (32:19):

Do you know that everything changes as you say? And I like that. I think never forget, oh no, I won’t carry on the tape that stuff. I think it’s important to not prophesize at the moment and there’s a real, I have conversations all day every day at the moment and I’m trying to say is that there is so much that could happen. There’s so much that will happen. But we really need to focus on the here and now. We can only deal with facts, we can only deal with what we see. There are some things to be taken from looking at the detail.

(33:03):

If we were to get another leadership race, if we were to see a general election, it would take so much and I can’t even begin to imagine what that would mean for the market. But where we sit right now, when you look at interest rates, and if we just focus on that for a second, when you look longer term, longer term fixed rates are a lot more stable. So the storm, is it happening, we’re here. But it feels like those people that are way more intelligent and vastly better educated than me are looking at this saying this is not for good. There is an end to this because the longer term rates are a lot more stable. We’re seeing longer term fixed rates, much more affordable. So I think, I don’t know, by the time we published this, everything could have changed. Liz could have come on and decided to U-turn on everything.

Amy (34:02):

Think just going on before, what’s really important, which I love about that is which we had a discussion on the other week around your kind of helpful mortgage market update that you do and actually drawing our attention to those longer term rates and not getting so fixated. So it is a case of, look, let’s just deal with what’s the here and now, but also do look up and do look at how lenders are pricing things and what their appetite is and where they’re positioning things for a four, five year fixed. It isn’t, it isn’t isn’t too scary, is it?

Kelly (34:39):

It’s not but that could change. And that’s why I’m saying it’s not to ours is not to sit and say that it’s definitely going to be that. But if the long term forecasts are for fairer weather, then I think we just have to, weather the storm that we are heading into and there’s no getting around it, we are, but it’s short lived, we would hope. And I think that’s the best that we can hope for at the minute.

Amy (35:05):

Well I think that’s a good thing to end my questioning on Asif, I think that’s the best we can hope for at the minute. As ever Kel, really useful, just to get a bit of context behind what everybody’s seeing and the pressures and stuff. And I think what would be probably really useful is maybe we rerecord something even in three months time and see where we are and just revisit and probably have this as a quarterly kind of slot of like right, what’s going on in the minute and where are we. So as always, and I’m not bitter that you didn’t invite me to Tea Dinner party, but thanks.

Kelly (35:42):

You’re welcome. Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

Asif (35:45):

On the quarterly update from the UK’s leading mortgage broker of shared ownership product. Is that correct?

Kelly (35:53):

I’ll rewrite my thing next time and just drop the really good looking bit in for you actually don’t forget to mention it.

Asif (35:58):

And leading mortgage broker of Share leadership products, is that correct? I’m sure it will be, so Kelly, fascinating stuff and I know the listeners are going to enjoy that with, it’s very topical, very much everything what’s happening and I certainly enjoy listening to that as well. So we’re going to share your contact details in the show notes, but if people can’t wait that long just and they’re listening now, what’s your website address? What should they do? How to connect with you?

Kelly (36:25):

So it’s tmpmortgages.co.uk and I’m on Twitter, as chirpy_kelly I can’t remember. It’ll be in the notes Asif.

Asif (36:39):

They’ll find you. So speaking of finding, you’ll find this podcast on Spotify, Apple and on our website. sochat.co.uk

(36:52):

Please do leave a rating and review if you’re listening on Spotify and Apple and you can follow us on Twitter at @sochathour.

(36:59):

So Kelly, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

(37:03):

And Amy, what a fantastic episode.

Amy (37:06):

Yeah, thanks.

Kelly (37:07):

Thanks.